Author Topic: Front Knuckles choice  (Read 1302 times)

CharlieN

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Front Knuckles choice
« on: March 12, 2018, 01:34:37 AM »
I am starting on an experimental project and am planning out my parts selection.

What my main goal is on this first step of this is to swap early knuckles and hubs onto a 3rd gen front suspension. I expect there will be benefit to a few once I have this figured out.
What I intend to achieve is to have selectable hubs on a gen 3 suspension.

I have at hand a set of Gen2/95SR front end as well as a 94 K26 pickup, the 3.0 MM. The Mighty Max knuckle interchange with 1st Gen Montis.

My question at hand here for you guys that have been deeper into these than I, is there any actual difference between Gen1 and Gen2 Knuckles/ hubs and such?
Going by part numbers the lower ball joints are a different number but I have not had them both in hand, not sure there is a true functional difference and not an issue here since I will use the Gen 3 joints.

I guess I really need to learn if there are geometric differences such as kingpin angle and steering arm location?

I should consider the Sport knuckles as well here as far as where they fit in for swapping.
Regards, Charlie N

jaccox

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 08:37:57 AM »
i've never seen a Gen3 knuckle, but I know that on the Gen2 knuckle the upper and lower balljoint are not in line with each other. the Upper balljoint is slightly forward of the lower balljoint. I can only assume it has something to do with caster? or maybe some other important facet of alignment. I really like the idea too, but would it lead to having to have custom CV's? I know the gen3 is much wider than a gen2 and i am guessing the outer shaft of the CV is shorter than a outer shaft of the gen2 CV's? would be nice to see pics of side by side. Would this also mean changing to gen2 brake calipers as well and if so why not go with montero sport bigger brakes and gain a little extra stopping insurance.
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CharlieN

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2018, 09:34:04 AM »
All the Monteros and 4WD pickups have very similar knuckles and relationship to the balljoints. There are detail differences between them that I have not yet researched.
The Gen1/2 and sport all have Truck type wheelbearings and hub with brake disc behind the hub. All of these you can use either manual or automatic selectable outer hubs. FWIW I instantly saw better than 1mpg increase on my '95 Sr the day I replaced the drive plates.
The Gen3 is essentially the same except the wheelbearing/hub is similar as to what you would find on a FWD car as well as every FWD sport ute made today.
The inner axle on a Gen3 is essentially the same as all Gen2 axles with a CAD to semi disconnect the front axle. But with the car type outer hubs there is no option to install manual hubs.

From what I am seeing I do not expect allot of problems swapping the earlier knuckles onto the gen 3 using the early half shafts. I would move forward with this quicker but all my vehicles in storage are over their hood in snow now with a few of them blocked by plow piles that are over their roofs.

Brakes, Way back in the late '80s I built the first turbo swapped Montero, this was soon followed with Fast Eddie swapping a Mighty Max. That Gen1 turbo Montero has 4wd discs that are all larger than the 16"Sport brake option we have today.
I am not sure just what I will do on my upcoming build but it might be Brembo calipers over 13" discs. All done with parts I have here.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 09:38:58 AM by CharlieN »
Regards, Charlie N

TOASTY

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2018, 05:47:19 PM »
 I know the Sport knuckles have the steering boss in a slightly different place and it has something to do with the weird draglink they have. I put a set on my Montero but the tierod adjustment was all the way out just to almost not have toe in.

CharlieN

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 03:32:16 AM »
Thank you, I was presuming the steering arms were the main part of the differences. It will be interesting to see how much work and swapping parts to find the best match for the Gen3 swap.
Regards, Charlie N

TOASTY

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 09:56:11 PM »
 Are you staying with the reciprocating steering gear or swapping to the rack and pinion?



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CharlieN

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2018, 04:47:31 PM »
This project is putting the gen3 subframes under my red gen1 turbo that the rear of the frame rusted out. I will end up with the coil spring front and IRS in back.
So yes this will have a rack in it.
I have been sitting on an Eaton LSD for the rear and will run a torsen up front.

Yesterday I bought a pair of 04 sport knuckles to start the conversion to selectable hubs.
Since the gen3 front diff housing, pinion mount is different than early housings I am going to see if just the right side tube will swap over from a non CAD axle. I have not looked close at this yet, waiting for the snow to go away still.
I do need a rack since my parts hulk is lacking that.
Other parts I am lacking is a 4.30 ratio rear diff and a pair of rear axles. There is a set down in Conn for easy money but I think I should get this to be a roller first.
Regards, Charlie N

RXIN HED

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2018, 06:53:55 PM »
I have supplied steering Gen 1 Montero knuckles to AZ Crew guys for a Gen 2.
 
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CharlieN

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 06:55:12 AM »
A few pictures of a 2004 Sport Knuckle and half shaft on a Gen3, never used Imgur so not sure I have this right.






From my first look it is not too bad, halfshaft is short, maybe a gen3 inner and shaft fitted to an early outer might do it.

Camber, need to see once I can swing this through it's range of travel. Might need to fiddle with say the upper balljoint mount location to stand the wheel up a bit if it is off.
Regards, Charlie N

CharlieN

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 06:59:50 AM »
Looks like I got the images right,
I have a steering rack coming next week so that will be trial fitted. This is a long way from checking the bump steer.
I need to do some bookwork to see if I can get information on the splines and shaft lengths up front here. I do have the drivers side gen3 shaft so that may come apart and see if I can swap the shafts in the outer joint.
Regards, Charlie N

CharlieN

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 08:08:09 AM »
Just out looking at this again, "our first sunny day above freezing in weeks" The steering arms on the Sport are very low compared to a Gen2 and especially the Gen3 I think these are low enough that I can ream the tie rod holes from the top and flip the TR ends and be very close.
Regards, Charlie N

MudRaider

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Re: Front Knuckles choice
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2018, 06:38:22 AM »
Good stuff. If junkyard parts can be used to put manual hubs on them, I think people would jump on it to get the mpg freeing up that drag.