Author Topic: '87 D50 4x4 Diesel Build  (Read 4080 times)

na3s

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'87 D50 4x4 Diesel Build
« on: July 26, 2018, 02:53:07 AM »
Iím getting ready to start on a project Iíve been planning and researching for quite some time and am hoping to glean some knowledge from several members on here with a bit more Mitsubishi experience.

My ultimate objective is to build a robust, simple, fairly easy to maintain/repair, minimal electronics, long lasting, and reliable truck capable of hauling decent loads, solid fuel economy, and long distance trips/possible overlanding expeditions. I donít do any crawling, but rather lots of winter driving in heavy snow/mountainous terrain, lots of tough dirt/gravel/logging roads, and long road trips.

Iíve an Ď87 Ram 50(D50) extra cab, 2.6 4G54, KM145 5 speed, 4x4, that is rust free, has good bones but a beat and tired engine. The general plan is to swap in a new D4BF (4D56t) mated to most of the running gear from a Ď97-í99 Montero Sport(MS):

-V5MT1-7 5 speed
-8Ē front end
-UCA & LCAs
-315mm front brakes
-9Ē locker rear end
-Rear disc brakes
-Rear leaf springs

Additionally Iím hoping to also add:

-Flat bed
-Front mount intercooler
-3 row radiator from a 2.6 Montero
-Dual speed electric fans
-Pyro and boost gauges
-Eliminate the EGT
-2.5Ē straight exhaust
-16Ē rims mated to 235/85r16 AT tires (to clear the larger 315mm front brakes)
-HD torsion bars
-HD rear leaf springs/shackles
-Aisin FHM-002 locking hubs
-Bilstein shocks
-New poly bushings/ball joints/etc throughout

Itís my understanding that the Ď97-í99 MS is essentially the 3rd gen of the MM/D50/Triton/L200 so most parts should be a fairly straight forward swap. Inevitably though, I know there will be several hitches and Iíve done lots and lots of reading/research but still have a few questionsÖ..

With the D4BF(4D56t) using the same mounts as the 4G54, its been a documented swap and shouldnít be too tricky. I plan on swapping over the oil pan and relocating the sump pick up and utilizing a Dakota Digital tach converter.

In most of the world the D4BF(4D56t) came mated to V5MT1 transmissions, does anyone have a part # for the bell housing needed to mate the two together?

Iím only +/- 35 miles from Vancouver, BC, home to many imported Delicas, Iím hoping to source one there. Itís my understanding the V5MT1s, and in particular the later, version 7, incarnations found on the Ď97-í99 MS is significantly more robust that the KM145. I plan on having the V5MT1-7 fully rebuilt before I swap it in.

Iím also aware that the later, +/- Ď94, MM 4x4/V6 came mated to an earlier version of the V5MT1s and an 8Ē front end. Can I use the transmission crossmember from that truck to fit my Ď87 D50/4G54 frame? What other parts should I grab to aid in this swap?

As far as gearing goes, Iíve read the Ď97-í99 MS came with either 4.22 or 4.63 gears?

My priority is fuel economy over offroad/crawling grunt so Iím sure which gear set would be best. Based on my research that V5MT1s are geared as:

First Gear Ratio: 3.918
Second Gear Ratio: 2.261
Third Gear Ratio: 1.395
Fourth Gear Ratio: 1.000
Fifth Gear Ratio: 0.829

Mated to 235/85r16 AT tires measuring +/-32Ē

Plugged into a calculator, https://www.blocklayer.com/rpm-geareng.aspx, puts the RPMs, when cruising at 70 MPH, at:

2,830 w/4.63 gears

Or

2,562 w/4.22 gears

Iíve read the D4BF likes to rev for a diesel, more so than the 4D56t, but Iím not certain where the optimal RPM:MPG threshold is; Iíve read its falls off sharply over 3k. Will freeway/roadtrip mileage suffer substantially w/the 4.63 gears vs the 4.22 gears?

Iím fairly confident the MS rear end should bolt up to my D50, what issues should I anticipate in fitting the front end?

Any benefit to using the MS steering box?

Will the MS rear leaf springs provide any lift, do they have a higher payload rating?

Iím hoping the HD torsion bars/UCA combo up front will accomodate 235/85r16 AT tires?

Will a set of shackles in the rear be necessary?

My first choice is to find a Ď97-í99 MS in the correct configuration w/a blown motor, bad body, etc to buy complete as a donor/parts car for $500-$1,000. If I canít however, what other parts should I be sure to grab if I end up piecemealing this via junk yards?

Sorry for the long post, hoping itís all been laid out clearlyÖ. Iíd appreciate any insights, advice, knowledge, etc. Iím still in the planning/parts sourcing stage and would prefer to side step any foreseeable issues in advance; Iíll likely start this project in earnest early this fall. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:40:45 AM by na3s »

IncorpoRatedX

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2018, 07:45:33 AM »
Quite the first post. Welcome to the forum, you've got a long road ahead of you with this build.

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2018, 08:16:53 AM »
I would swap all of the Sport steering and suspension minus torsions (they should be too long, get 93-93 Monty torsions). The rear springs are military wrap and much better but they take a little work to make them fit the old front hanger. They will rub slightly on the bottom but you can stretch the opening with a crescent wrench or trim with a grinder, you'll see what I mean it's obvious.
 Charlie has a post here with all the bellhousing part numbers, he doesn't have many threads here so it should be an easy find. As for the crossmember I would try both and if neither work just combine them to fit.
 Personally I'd rock 4.63's but that's coming from the Montero world and L200's are significantly lighter and more aerodynamic so 4.27 gears might be better (4.22's are 2WD rears or so i recall).

 Are you buying a new crate engine?

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2018, 09:27:30 AM »
Your build sounds very similar to my 90 Mighty Max 4x4 build except for one thing. You are going diesel where I went for bigger cubes. 3.8l MIVEC.

The rear disc axle is a fairly straightforward swap. Tying in the ebrake will take some work and customization. Not fun. Pull the cables with your axle when you do. Pulled mine 9Ē  from a 97 sport. Keep in mind your axle will push out another 1.5Ē iirc on both sides. Doesnít look bad though. I thought about locker too but no real good options out there and they inevitability fail at some point. The factory lsd is just as good, so I installed mine with the factory 4.22 gearing.

I also picked up the V5MT1 trans out of that sport. The only real gains I found in my research is that it is a little more robust and that they improved the syncros for high speed shifts and downshifting. Perfect for my application but probably not a deal breaker fo you.

Do the 2nd gen Montero front disc swap. Big improvement.

Ditch the exhaust idea. I have a cut out on mine and I see no difference when I switch between the two. Factory exhaust is more than adequate.

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2018, 09:54:20 AM »
Wow. Very ambitious build. Welcome!

I've had the 4d56t in both a Pajero and a Strada (l200). The paj had 488s and I ran 33x1050s. The pickup had 462s and I found for highway use, running 31x1050s was about the best way to use the powerband. I'm glad you're sticking with a manual trans. This engine is anemic to the point of unusable behind an auto and torque converter in my opinion. I think with the tire you're looking at, the 462 is a much better choice. The low down Torque of  the diesel lets you stay in fifth on the highway even for moderate hills but I fear the 422s will have you lugging far too much and downshifting more than you want to. But it depends on how you intend to use it I guess.

In terms of fuel economy, mine was happiest right around 95 or 100km/h. Over that I found economy dropped off fairly quickly. Opinions are what they are and ultimately you need to look at your usage to determine best course. You're going about it the right way and will come up with a good plan by the sounds of it.

Look forward to seeing this come together.

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2018, 04:47:16 PM »


So, partly same build idea. I've accumulated many of the pieces that you describe. The 8" front diff could easily come out of the Gen 1 Montero and already have the 4.625 gears, similar enough to go with Montero Sport 4.636 gears. One difference in our projects is the engine, mine has the Starion 4g54t. Others include the bed, gears, lift and tire size.

I'm still accumulating parts, then I need time.
Russell
1988 Max SPX Extended Cab 4wd with Service Body & Starion Power
1980 Dodge W400 service truck

For Sale: 1983 Montero #277, 1989 Power Ram 50 extended cab
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na3s

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 12:16:40 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback, I'm happy to see most of the usual suspects, whose threads and posts I've been reading for the last year or so, chime in.

Incorpo:

Yeah it'll be an undertaking, but there isn't anything else on the market that fits this niche, at least not as affordably. By my rough calculations, to do a comparable diesel build with a Toyota Hilux/Cruiser would easily be 2-3x as expensive and far more difficult in sourcing a motor.

Plus, it seems these are pretty simple and stout trucks with a ton of overlap between models offering strong/cheap/easy upgrades, as well as quite a bit of after market support from other corners of the globe... I'm honestly surprised there aren't far more of these being built.


Toasty:

That's pretty much the plan, D4BF motor, MS drive line/suspension/brakes, sistered into a Ram 50.

"...torsions (they should be too long, get 93-93 Monty torsions).."

Which year/model Monteros? I'd like to be able to crank them a bit for a modest lift to accommodate 31"-32" AT tires comfortably, so was thinking....

http://shop.adventuredrivendesign.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_80&product_id=70

https://ironman4x4america.com/triton-l200-pre-1993-front-torsion-bars/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MITSUBISHI-TRITON-10-86-ON-HIGH-QUALITY-ARCHM4X4-TORSION-BARS/161135246854
 
I'm happy to hear fitting the MS leaf springs isn't too tricky. Do you know if they're stiffer/rated higher than the MM/D50 leaf springs?

It would be great if they had a higher payload rating and would mate with a set of shackles for a modest lift...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MITSUBISHI-TRITON-10-86-ON-ARCHM4X4-REAR-GREASABLE-SHACKLES/151308154027

"...Charlie has a post here with all the bellhousing part numbers, he doesn't have many threads here so it should be an easy find..."

What is Charlie's screename here so I know who to search for?

"...As for the crossmember I would try both and if neither work just combine them to fit...."

Combining them is a great idea, that should substantially help in getting a solid fit, thanks.

I'm leaning towards 4.63 gears as well, I think they'll be the sweet spot for grunt vs. cruising RPM.

The plan is to order a new crate D4BF motor. I've been exchanging emails with few vendors on EC21/Alibaba/etc and am also aware of Max Overdrive in BC, only about 40 miles from me. It sounds like their prices have gone up quite a bit and I can get a far better deal importing the motor myself direct from S Korea.

I've done all the research and have all the customs forms/loopholes figured out for how to import it. I've been saving up for this project for a quite a while and am waiting on a check in the next month or two before I place my order. My only fear is this tariff/trade war escalates and encompasses S. Korea before I can get the motor...


Charger:

I'm gratified to hear I'm not the only one foolish enough to take on this kind of build.

I'd read that the MS rear axle was a bit wider and am hoping to mitigate it with some combination of front wheel spacers and a slightly wider than stock flatbed in the rear. Possibly even playing with the offset/backspacing on rims if need be.

Did you have to have custom cables made for the E brake or was it just a pain to get it all fitted w/custom brackets/etc?

I thought about the LSD but think ultimately the locker will be a better fit long term. With the 9" rear end, if the OEM locker ever dies I can swap in an ARB unit.

I've a fantasy of taking out some equity in my house at some point and hitting the road for a few years, drive to Tierra Del Fuego and back, so in that scenario, I'll definitely want the rear locker, and maybe even an ARB one out front too.

I've read the V5MT1s are more robust that the KM145 and and am happy to hear the front brake upgrade is so simple and noticeable.

Why don't you think a 2.5" straight exhaust will be good for the D4BF?

My best friend is a skilled welder, so I plan to build one out of stainless to avoid rust/corrosion. There's not much down side to letting a turbo diesel breath, and I hope to eventually put it on a dyno to tune the timing/injection pump once it's all together.


Paj:

Thanks for the encouragement.

"...The pickup had 462s and I found for highway use, running 31x1050s was about the best way to use the powerband...."

This is great to hear, as that's essentially the same set up I'll end up with.

"...This engine is anemic to the point of unusable behind an auto and torque converter in my opinion...."

I'm interested to see how it feels mated to a rebuilt 5 speed and solid suspension.

I've read that despite being so similar, the 4D55t/4D56ts and the D4BF have distinctly different characteristics. There are several threads by Mike Warne/Warme? (4D55Performance) out in Utah comparing the two motors and saying the D4BF feels much more powerful and more willing to rev.... We'll see.

It'll be interesting to find out how much a straight 2.5" exhaust, front mounted intercooler, and tuned injection pump impact the performance/MPG as well. I've read on several Australian Pajero forums it makes a difference.

What kind of mileage did you get running at 95-100 km/h?


Rxin:

I've admired your truck many times, I'm looking forward to seeing where it ends up.

I'm hoping to find/buy a '97-'99 MS with everything/gearing I want/need for the swap so I can park it right next to my D50 and transfer it over; avoiding piecemealing it all together from several different vehicles as much as possible.

I know that inevitably I'll end up do a fair bit of that anyway, but I also think it'll end up cheaper to buy a totaled/blown motor MS for $500-$1000 and get 85% of what I need for the same vehicle instead of getting nickled and dimed by a million trips (1-2 hrs) to the you pull yards. That's the hope anyway...





« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 12:25:57 AM by na3s »

TOASTY

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 12:48:28 AM »
Mike Warme is the guy that builds diesel Mighty Maxes, owns a ton of new old stock and a ton of used parts he is a very knowledgeable guy. He built the truck for Spence (4D55Performance).
 
 Charlie is CharlieN and he goes by OldColt on the other forums.

 Have you looked into used 4M40's at all? They can be had attached to a V5MT2 5 speed already. There's one for $1500 delivered but they don't say if it's an auto or manual, one with an auto for $2000 and one for $3000 with V5MT2 on eBay.


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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2018, 02:27:18 AM »
"...Charlie is CharlieN and he goes by OldColt on the other forums...."

I searched both of those screenames and didn't come up with anything...

Anyone have a lead on the thread he's posted listing the bell housing part #s?

Sourcing the D4BF/4D56t > V5MT1 bell housing is one of the few crucial pieces of the puzzle I'm not yet sure of.

"....Mike Warme is the guy that builds diesel Mighty Maxes, owns a ton of new old stock and a ton of used parts he is a very knowledgeable guy. He built the truck for Spence (4D55Performance)...."

That's right, I struggle keeping so many people I've never met straight across various forums, 4x4wire/mightyram50/pirate4x4/expeditionportal/etc, and often times with different screenames on each.

I've read Spence(4D55Performance) comment about how much more powerful the new D4BF in the '83 MM Mike Warme built and sold him, is than his fully/extensively rebuilt and tuned 4D56t...

http://www.mightyram50.net/vbulletin/showthread.php/3159-1983-Mitsubishi-Turbo-Diesel-restoration-by-Mike-Warme

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/mitsubishi/834913-1985-mitsubishi-turbo-diesel-sas-money-pit-4.html

That gets to my reasoning to go for a new crate D4BF over a used 4D56t or 4M40, it seems penny wise and pound foolish to buy a used motor with no history when you can get a brand new motor/turbo/injection pump/etc for an extra $1-2,000; particularly when I'm already going to invest a ton of time, effort and money in every other part of the truck.

Rebuilding the turbo, head, and/or injection pump alone could more than account for that price differential.

Additionally, it's my understanding you can't buy crate 4M40s, their parts seem to be more $$$ and more difficult to source, and ultimately, I don't think I'll need the extra power it offers.

My hope is to keep the D50 pretty light with a flatbed. I'd prefer a slower, simpler, cheaper, more reliable truck over a fast/heavier truck.

With an intercooler, the 4D56t/D4BF supposedly makes 78 kW (104 hp) at 4,300 rpm & 240 N-m (177 lb-ft) at 2,000 rpm

Whereas the Toyota 22RE makes 84 kW (114hp) at 4,800 rpm & 190N-m (140ft-lb) at 3,600 rpm

I've owned and driven 4x4/5mt Tacoma's w/22REs and never had any issue with their power, the 9% loss of hp will more than be made up for by the 26% increase in torque, not to mention the fact that it peaks at 2,000 rpm vs 3,600 rpm, making it's grunt far more useful.

Additionally, with its Bosch VE type injection pump, I'm pretty confident a straight 2.5" exhaust and playing with the fuel pin/plunger and tuning/timing it on a dyno will liberate more power from the D4BF, as well as increase fuel economy.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 02:49:25 AM by na3s »

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2018, 07:26:59 AM »
I agree on the new Hyundai engine being the way to go, for the price and being new and complete vs old unknowns. Just thought I'd throw those out there, the main advantage there being it coming with a trans.

 I found Charlie's post but he never posted back with the 4D56 V5MT1 bellhousing, just all the V6 stuff. Here it is, maybe you can re ask him.

https://forum.adventuredrivendesign.com/index.php/topic,448.15.html

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2018, 04:40:46 PM »
Paul Hanson has some diesel experience, too, and regularly travels to SE Asia. Might be able to arrange or score some cool parts, like the 2.6L to V5MT1 bellhousing I recently purchased.
1988 Max SPX Extended Cab 4wd with Service Body & Starion Power
1980 Dodge W400 service truck

For Sale: 1983 Montero #277, 1989 Power Ram 50 extended cab
Sundry Gen 1 Montero and Gen 1 & 2 Mighty Max parts and vehicles for sale

TOASTY

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2018, 04:49:54 PM »
 RXIN HED, that's the one! Time to contact PLH for another.

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2018, 05:27:57 PM »


On the left is beauty. On the right is a KM-145.

Surrounding these is my junk pile.
1988 Max SPX Extended Cab 4wd with Service Body & Starion Power
1980 Dodge W400 service truck

For Sale: 1983 Montero #277, 1989 Power Ram 50 extended cab
Sundry Gen 1 Montero and Gen 1 & 2 Mighty Max parts and vehicles for sale

na3s

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Re: '87 D50 4x4-D4BF Diesel/97-99 MS Swap/Build Questions
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2018, 08:42:22 PM »
Toasty:

Thanks for the link, nothing came up when I searched his screen name...

I think the new D4BF, at +/- $4k with everything it includes, is a stupid good deal. I've high hopes for it.


Rxin:

Do you have any contact info or a screen name for Paul Hanson?

That's the bell housing I'm after; the 2.6 & 4D56t/D4BF share the same mounting pattern.

I've found this one on ebay and have contacted the seller to confirm it was mated to a V5MT1 and get a shipping quote from Greece.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/MITSUBISHI-K74T-L200-5SPEED-FLOOR-4WD-ENGINE-4D56-T-HOUSING-BELL-OEM-USED/322882759585

The only difference I can see between it and units I've found in Europe still mated to V5MT1s is the circled mount....


https://www.autoparts24.co.uk/item/D_0024_445492/

It seems your bell housing has this mount as well...



ES_97Sport (Edward / http://www.4x4extremesports.com/index.php) has addressed this discrepancy in mounts as well...


http://4x4wire.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/858879/7.html

It seems it has to do with variances in the way the clutch slave cylinder is mounted???

An image search for '98 MS slaves seems to show they don't require the mount in question, utilizing the two holes just below it - https://www.google.com/search?q=1998+montero+sport+clutch+slave&client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjCi--T2MDcAhXIzFQKHe-rAfgQ_AUICygC&biw=1251&bih=681

Can anyone confirm whether or not it's a necessary mount?


On an unrelated note, can anyone tell me, or better yet provide a picture showing, the location of the R/D Lock switch in '97-'99 MSs?

Is it to the left of the steering wheel or near the cigarette plug forward of the shifter?

Should I also expect to see an orange sticker on the tunnel next to where the driver's right knee rests?

I'm searching CL/junkyard listings and it seems most owners/sellers are oblivious as to whether or not their trucks have locking diffs and I'm having a hard time determining for myself based on poorly lit interior pics.


« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 08:53:13 PM by na3s »